Family Business: The Clipse
For GREATEST 08, the duo behind Clipse chart their legendary careers in conversation with longtime friend and manager Steven Victor.
“Playas, we ain’t the same,” Clipse begins on their 2002 album, Lord Willin’. Barely six seconds into the project’s runtime, declarations of self, elevations of craft, a connoisseur’s eye for extravagance and an insider’s attention to detail have already crystallized: “I’m into ’caine and guns/Chopard with the fishes, make the facelift numb.” From there, the Brothers Thornton drop two minutes of hook-free verses that are chilling in their gaze and astounding for the sheer amount of novel couplets—a sneering sophistication of rhyme that showcases a love of wordcraft atop mountains of disdain. “Cats act as if rap fell in my lap/I’ve suffered heartbreak many times back-to-back,” they rap. “And still feel belittled, sittin’ here spittin’ riddles amongst clown-ass rappers who tend to give me the giggles.”
Hailing from Virginia—which became not just a homebase but a motif and co-defendant in their music—Malice and Pusha T introduced commercial hip-hop to unforeseen levels of sophistication regarding fashion and flyness, worldview and wordplay, and, most notably, the allure of being enraptured by success in the drug game. Their bond of blood brotherhood and shared experiences was encapsulated within a yin and yang equilibrium, with younger brother Pusha being more flashy and unrepentant, and Malice more distant and remorseful.
Even with all this going for them, Clipse have one of the more shattered discographies in hip-hop. Their first completed album, Exclusive Audio Footage, was never released in stores. Corporate mergers soon left them in label limbo, causing them to begin the lauded We Got It 4 Cheap mixtape series as part of the Re-Up Gang—a quartet of rappers who put together words like they had both nothing and everything to lose. Their 2006 album, Hell Hath No Fury, found the duo differentiating themselves from the artistic landscape they helped pioneer but were not able to partake in due to contractual disputes. Despite being widely considered one of the year’s best rap releases, organizational restructuring soon found Clipse prepared to release their next studio album, Til the Casket Drops, on yet another record label.
As if to prove the point, in 2010, their former manager was sentenced to prison for being the leader of a $20 million drug ring. “They were picking up all our friends at different times,” Malice expressed in a 2016 interview where he recalled his friends being arrested in front of their children. “We didn’t know who was going to get picked up next. They were kicking in doors and making mommas and wives get on the floor. It was just crazy.” The legal fears, his own conscience and a return to a relationship with God led Malice to step away from rap music—even going as far as to rebrand himself as No Malice and releasing a book and a documentary about his journey.
It was at this point that Clipse’s publicist-turned-manager Steven Victor was faced with the task of establishing Pusha T as a solo artist. Victor—whose Victor Victor Worldwide would steer the career of the late Pop Smoke to record-breaking heights—guided Pusha to creative and executive relationships with powerful cultural forces, including Kanye West’s G.O.O.D. Music and adidas. But it was Pusha who forged a solo canon that now includes two Grammy-nominated albums: 2018’s Daytona and 2022’s It’s Almost Dry.
The latter achieved the dream of being jointly produced by West and Pharrell Williams, and is likely to go down as the only project in history to have that particular authorship. “You can live forever when the shit you write is timeless,” he snarls on “I Pray For You,” a song from the album that put him in the studio for public consumption with his brother for the first time in almost 15 years. “The record deals showed me ignorance was bliss,” raps Malice, adding: “X told you hell is hot/I told you repent.”
Amidst gearing up for their return to the forefront of hip-hop with a new album, Clipse sits down with Steven Victor for an on-the-record dialogue about their past, present and future. The natural dichotomy between the brothers remains an inextricable balance. Being true to themselves is par for the course. Time will tell how the rap game reacts to a tandem that has always made space for itself on its own terms. For their part, Pusha and Malice aren’t showing any signs of insecurity. They soft-launched a song while using Paris’ Pont Neuf as a catwalk for Pharrell’s inaugural Louis Vuitton collection, while a who’s who of hip-hop, including JAY-Z and Beyoncé, head-nodded, as did LVMH CEO Bernard Arnault. Playas, you ain’t the same.
Steven Victor: Do you guys remember the time we first met?
Pusha T: I actually don’t remember when we first met! I do remember the way, though. It was through [music executive] Nicole Plantin. I don’t know if Nicole called me or if I called her. She might’ve called me, but I felt like we needed help. I believe, at the time, we were looking for a publicist?
SV: I was talking to Nicole. I used to go into her office all the time because she had an office at Star Trak Entertainment, in the same building as Interscope where I was an intern. I would be talking to her about different things that I wanted to do. I was in her office one time, and I saw a photo of you guys, which sparked an idea. I was like, “Yo, this is my favorite group. Nicole, you need to get me in touch with them.” And she was like, “Oh, they’re looking for a publicist. I’ma give Pusha your number. He’s gonna call you.” And I thought it was cap because, at the time, I had never spoken to an artist directly like that.
Malice: That’s what I remember. I remember it having everything to do with a publicist. I also remember it was very, very convenient with you being in such close proximity to the office. You were always there to help us out in any way. You would sit in the meetings, you would run to the office, you would bring paperwork or things we needed to sign. Whatever we needed, I remember you always filling in the blanks.
PT: I do remember Nicole expressing that you were a fan of the group. Like, “Man, this guy always bugs me about you guys.” But it was definitely something that I was on her about. Was this before the We Got It 4 Cheap mixtapes?
SV: This was right in the middle of it. The first one had come out already.
PT: So it definitely—definitely—was about publicity. Because, at this particular time, I didn’t understand why the mixtapes weren’t in the streets versus them being on the internet.
SV: Oh, wow. I never knew that.
PT: I was highly, highly, highly upset. Highly upset that we had mixtapes that were so good and I could only find them on the internet—I couldn’t feel them in the streets. Coming from a mixtape background and being a mixtape consumer, and physically driving to places in Norfolk to buy mixtapes, I was angry that I could not see things like the Re-Up Gang mixtapes and We Got It 4 Cheap in the world. I could only hear about it or read about it on the internet and see the praise there. These are the best verses ever to me and I’m like, “The streets don’t even know it.” That’s why I had to speak to her specifically.
There was this man, [talent manager] Jason Swartz, who was very instrumental in this world. He was trying to tell us, “This is happening. People are fucking with you as fans.” He’s trying to talk to us about Pitchfork and NahRight. I’m like, “Man, I don’t give a fuck about that shit. I’m going outside, and I can’t fucking find the tape.”
M: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You gave him the business. He was telling us that everything was good and about the fan base. I remember it was the college kids. He was talking all about how everybody was gravitating towards the mixtapes. I think you couldn’t see it.
PT: Right, I couldn’t. And I went crazy. Fast forward to 2021, 2022—sometime after Daytona but before It’s Almost Dry. I saw [Jason] at a club in Hollywood. He was like, “What’s up, man? How you doing? Great to see you […] Hey, what do you think about your fan base now?” He brought it straight to me. He was like, “Remember? What do you think about your fan base and how it grew?”
M: That’s how bad you gave it to him.
PT: I gave it to him so crazy back then that he remembered and knew to say it to me. And he was so right. He was right the whole time. I couldn’t see it then, though. I apologized like crazy.
SV: Unbelievable. Maybe this was because I was a publicist and I was in my own world, but I definitely remember having a feeling, around that same time, that the press was going to have more of an influence on what was popular rather than the streets.
PT: You were part of that world of hipness. You were part of the change. You were in the middle of it. We were out of it. We didn’t know what the fuck was happening. The value of it didn’t hit me until [our March 2006] show at Knitting Factory. It didn’t hit me ’til then that this was a real, viable world that I could see the value of.
SV: What are some of your favorite moments of us working together?
M: We have so many memories, Steven. Especially when you took us to Brooklyn, to the “90s” stretch of Flatbush, and we shot the video for “Popular Demand.” We had a great time. It was very wild. It was so wild, you can’t even put it into words.
SV: It was so wild. [Laughs]
M: I always look forward to you telling a story. You cannot get the words out without uncontrollably laughing, so you know that the punchline is coming—even to this day. Even in my absence, and then coming back, it’s still the exact same thing. It’s hilarious.
SV: Those do be some good laughs, but that time in Flatbush was crazy, man.
PT: The “90s” were crazy, but it’s not one particular moment for me. I felt the growing pains of the industry, and of you transitioning from publicist to manager. When I think about all those times—the arguing, the yelling, the pressure from other people, just in regards to you, people saying, “You should be representing them better.” When I think about everything and everybody’s opinions, we had a lot of rough times. But us being loyal to each other and collectively saying, “This is the team.” Even when there were bad moves, we were learning. Everybody was learning at this particular time. It wasn’t like you came in at the sweet spot of Clipse, “Grindin’,” our first success. You came in during turmoil—real turmoil. We fought through all that shit. It’s not one particular time, but I feel where we are right now, that shit just says a lot. It’s like, “Man, our success is the craziest, full-circle, fuck-you moment.”
SV: I learn everything through the times. From the beginning of when we started working together to yesterday, whenever we speak. I learned all of the shit that I know now through our experiences—the good, the bad, the getting screamed at. There were a lot of growing pains on my part, as well. But to experience that level of loyalty, to have somebody believe in you, to look past your mistakes and the fuckups … that’s a lot. To learn from that is a priceless experience.
M: You learned on the battlefield. You learned in wartime.
SV: Was the inception of Clipse always thought of as a collaborative duo or was it of you as singular artists?
M: From the inception of Clipse, it was always the duo. By the time we had come up with Clipse, we were together as a group. Initially, it was just myself rhyming at first, but we were all hanging out together at Chad’s—Chad [Hugo], Pharrell, Pusha, myself and Tracey, a childhood friend of ours. Her emcee name was Tracey from Space. We called her “Space” for short. We were just all hanging out, but as far as rhyming, it started with me. Then one day Pharrell and Chad were playing a beat and Terrence wrote a verse. I think it was “Thief in the Night.”
SV: Jump to a few months ago and you guys debuted a track at Pharrell’s first-ever Louis Vuitton show. What did that mean to you?
PT: Debuting that track with Pharrell being the creative director and the first new era of Clipse, it set the tone and the stage for everything that’s to come. I feel like it’s that grandiose. The whole execution of it really let people know: The whole idea of Clipse, right now, 2023, there’s nothing small-time about it. It’s still that high level—high taste level, high art level, high everything that they should expect.
M: I feel like it was right in line with what the fans know us to be and what the fans know us for. I was captivated by being able to witness Pharrell, at this day and age, still at the top of his game. Also being able to witness my brother still at a high level at this point in time. Never mind how I see myself, but the fact the fans appreciate us and that we’re still here. Even on such a grand scale, when I’m with the family—my brother, Pharrell, you, Steven—when we’re together, I might miss how big something is because it still feels like it’s something we put together. No matter who’s there or who the big-money players are, I still feel almost like we’re in the comfort of our own living room because we’re together.
SV: Are there any artists, upcoming or from your generation, inspiring you guys today?
M Every time I work out, I always rock with 50 Cent’s Get Rich or Die Tryin’. I listen to that to this day; it’s my motivation. The only thing that knocked that out the box was Pop Smoke. He really caught my attention, as far as being inspired, with the energy, liveliness and the way he embodied who he was. Another person who I really believe speaks his language, and I believe that he’s true to what he says, is Lil Baby.
PT: As far as younger artists, I admire the fan bases and the energy that they build more so than the music. I admire their work ethic and them putting out song after song after song, and watching their work turn into stardom. Today, when a rapper reaches stardom, it’s basically a People’s Choice Award. Being that it’s the People’s Choice Award, you gotta respect it. That goes for all the young artists that are out there today who made a name for themselves, ’cause it wasn’t like that for us coming up.
SV: Outside of collaborating with each other, what’s your dream collaboration?
PT: Man. I don’t know. I’m collab’d out. I don’t even care about collaborations if it’s not among a great body of work. I’m into cohesive, great bodies of work. I feel like, in these times, with everybody feeling so fly-by-night, that’s the only thing that’s keeping this genre alive.
M: As far as hip-hop goes, the highwater mark is always collaborating with JAY-Z, so I would like that. Outside of hip-hop, I would like to see Clipse with artists like Coldplay and The Killers, with big arena records, festivals, something that moves globally.
SV: How do you pick the collaborations to move forward with?
M: It’s gotta be an organic fit. And it has to complement the skill set, the style, the intellect. It just has to make sense. I’m not looking just to collaborate for the sake of collaboration. It definitely has to match. It has to give significance to each other. When the listener hears it, they should be able to say to themselves, “I know why they’re working together.”
SV: What about your individual approaches? In what ways are they a form of collaboration and in what ways are they different?
PT: I think that people see Clipse, and have seen Clipse, and have been very, very vocal about our differences. I watch people admire different things about Malice and different things about myself. The fans themselves have been very vocal about us and the comparisons. It makes for great, great music and a great fan debate. There’s so much of a back-and-forth. People are so passionate when it comes to what they love about each of us.
M: Our style is true to life when we collaborate. I think our differences—I’m talking about me and T—is the major part of what sustains Clipse, and what makes us viable to this day. It’s effortless. It’s a major part of us, who we are—organically and truly. It’s almost like two different paths, but at the same time similar and working together. To see how we pull it off, with our differences, and it always just meshes perfectly—I think that’s been the magic of Clipse from Day One.
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